Spontaneous preferences in politics

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Florian Galler

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Nov 1, 2020, 12:45:22 PM11/1/20
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Spontaneous preferences in politics

 

We should see it as it is: the power of the small, rural, conservative states in the US political system is quite strong. They have a lot of weight in the U.S. Senate and can prevent and enforce many things there. For example, the Senate elects the judges of the US Supreme Court. The Senate is dominated by rural, relatively small and medium-sized states, which are relatively backward in terms of social development, economic development and living standards.   A conservative electorate often dominates, especially since the beginning of neoliberalism and neo-conservatism. The conservative, rural states with their conservative electorate spend little on education, schooling and health care and are therefore largely to blame for their own social backwardness and weak economic situation

 

Since neoliberalism, voters' political preferences have changed and become more convservative. The political influence of liberal forces and regions, the big cities, the growth regions within and among the states has decreased and the conservatives find stronger allies in our social alters than was the case at the time when the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court could lead to a de facto right to abortion on a national level.

 

Historically, it has been difficult to form the state. This is probably evidenced by the strong position that had to be given to small rural states.

 

It is okay if young people cannot see this important aspect in the phase of their first politicization.

 

But the government has no choice; it has to deal with the Senate. It should not, if the urban cancel-culture condemns something which is behind their own belief-systems, withdraw support from the Administration, blame the national government and withdraw political support, if the Administration would not side with them.  For the latter only does what it can to find majorities in the Senate for reasonable policies.

 

And we should not forget that not only democracy but ultimately also the statehood of the USA is prinicpally endangered. It is a crisis of the USA as a federal state, the conservatives and the liberals are not getting together. Social growth and liberalism are an increasing nightmare for the conservatives.

 

It is not only the ideological right, but also the left that can endanger the statehood of the USA. Corbyn, the former leader of the British Labour Party, was a highly respected politician among the radical left, although he hardly lifted a finger to prevent Brexit. Even the notorious Black Bloc, from which many left-wing liberals cannot distance themselves and which so clearly manifested its will to destroy and its contempt for democracy at the G20 summit in Hamburg in 2017, is diametrically opposed to our democratic system and tries to harm it wherever it can.

 

When I say that we have become wise by harm, I understand it to mean that the rational personality has been purified by the harm caused by the Trump government and that therefore, without us realizing it, less pressure from social age is weighing on our rational personality. This then makes it easier for us to take reasonable positions.

 

In my approach I focus on the individual voter and the political opinion leaders. They should admit to themselves that their spontaneous political preferences should be questioned if they have proven to be unwise in retrospect.

 

We should be better able to relativize our spontanrous apocalyptic, anti-democratic preferences.

 

The Trump administration's vicious corona policy produced 3 times more deaths than Americans were killed in Vietnam.

 

Not everyone needs 200,000 deaths before they become reasonable. If we, as enlightened citizens, admit in principle that our political involuntary preferences can cause harm, it makes us more inclined to take a reasonable political position and distance us form ideological ones.

 

Florian Galler

Nov. 1, 2020

www.psychohistoy.ch

David Shackleton

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Nov 1, 2020, 2:55:08 PM11/1/20
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Florian, you did not respond to a single point made in response to your
posts.

Instead, you present more moral polarization posing as intellectualism.

Both the left and the right are busy constructing narratives for the
purpose of deluding themselves that their side is virtuous and the other
side is villainous. It's a game called moral polarization, and it is that
game that is threatening our civilization. Those who play that tribal
game are the true psychological primitives, and they are pretty much
running the show on both sides of the political fence these days.

The future looks bleak indeed. It doesn't much matter who wins the US
election, because the issue isn't ideology, but the lack of awareness, the
lack of conscious enlightenment.

David
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Florian Galler

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Nov 1, 2020, 4:28:59 PM11/1/20
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David, make no mistake. Dems were since Neoliberalism generally for Democracy, rule of law, international cooperation, Reps with the exception of Bush sen. were not.

David Shackleton

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Nov 1, 2020, 4:45:06 PM11/1/20
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You insist on your moral polarization. Of course, that is all it takes to
keep it.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/realpsychohistory/3b9962cf-fc78-420b-8242-2150bcfc7622n%40googlegroups.com.
>


Florian Galler

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Nov 2, 2020, 12:06:34 AM11/2/20
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David, Trump is to nobody as respectful as to the Neo-Nazis, whereas Biden would not side with and not giving support to left extremists or transporting their hate feelings by his presidential politics. Would this be a remarkable difference or not?
Florian

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: David Shackleton <da...@integraldesign.org>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 1. November 2020 22:45
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Betreff: Re: Spontaneous preferences in politics
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David Shackleton

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Nov 2, 2020, 12:44:24 AM11/2/20
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Florian, Biden and other Dems are respectful to Black Lives Matter rioters
who destroy property, attack people and want to defund the police. They
refuse to criticize leftist extremists like Antifa.

Is there really a difference?

David
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Florian Galler

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Nov 2, 2020, 12:57:31 AM11/2/20
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David, I do not believe that Biden would side with rioters. However, the blacks urgently need our support in view of the danger they are in because of murderous police violence.

Isn't it a remarkable difference that the Democratic candidate never would and Democratic presidents never did touch or the electoral law and Biden would not do so either, although the extreme ideological left would want him to do so, while Trump mockingly promises that he won't accept the election and that he did everything in advance to make it a disaster?
Florian

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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Esa Palosaari

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Nov 2, 2020, 1:17:35 AM11/2/20
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Hi,

Florian from Zürich and me from Helsinki do not matter one bit for the political life of the United States. It is interesting that the American culture and politics seem to have an influence on our emotional lives here across the pond, and that many here have strong views about political matters over there. I suspect the emotional impact comes partly from the pop culture and also partly from the real effects of economic, environmental, and military policies on the whole world. 

Views about American politics are also an identity marker here in Europe. There is concern for universal values which cross the boundaries (human rights, rule of law, democracy). That there should be justice in this world. Related to this, Finland's former president / strong man / dictator Kekkonen said that we as a small country should not act as a judge but as a physician when dealing with the problems in this world (and there was quite a bit to judge across the border in USSR). That's a role that psychohistory could have. 

Nevertheless, Trump presents a much larger threat to the values and to the view of justice that matters to me than Biden. Biden is also the centrist, both-sides option, that seems to be close to the position David Shackleton claims to support.

Good luck!
Esa

- Here's a centrist conservative's view on Biden's centrism (from the FAKE NEWS, FAILING New York Times, though):

"Biden is campaigning in a land filled with fear, hatred and apocalyptic thinking. It would be so easy for him to reflect that fear and hate back to voters. That’s what Trump does.

"But Biden is not doing that. Never in my life have I seen a candidate so confidently avoid wedge issues. Biden is instead running on the conviction that, despite it all, Americans deeply love their country, and viscerally long for its unity. He’s running with the knowledge that when you ask America about the greatest threats to our future, “political polarization and divisiveness” comes out No. 1.


"Biden has avoided the stupid binaries about race. Donald Trump went to Mount Rushmore and made a speech essentially saying you can either believe in systemic racism or you can love America. Biden went to Gettysburg and argued that you can “honestly face systemic racism” and love America. He argued that you can believe in fighting racism and believe in law and order. His worldview is based on universal categories — the things we share — not identitarian ones — the ways we supposedly can’t understand each other across difference."


(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/29/opinion/joe-biden.html)


- Fact check (from the commies at Reuters) about Biden's respect for looters: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemn-violence-idUSKBN25V2O1



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Florian Galler

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Nov 2, 2020, 11:22:03 AM11/2/20
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David, I wrote a lot. If you intend boring me and not wanting me to react to what you write anymore,  you should just goi on like this.

da...@integraldesign.org schrieb am Sonntag, 1. November 2020 um 20:55:08 UTC+1:

David Shackleton

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Nov 4, 2020, 8:14:15 AM11/4/20
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Florian, actually it is I who am bored with this. Ever since the election
of Trump in 2016 I have watched the left lose their minds, including
(especially) the intellectuals among them. And I have realized the power
of moral polarization, which is a psychological mechanism of guilt
projection. It results in the polarization of perceptions and judgments
in a moral dimension, resulting in convictions about innocent victims (our
group) and guilty perpetrators (the out group). For a good example, see
https://www.academia.edu/36536454/Why_Trump_Won_Outgroup_Hostility_as_the_New_Ethnocentrism?email_work_card=title

The distortion of reality which this requires, or results in, is serious,
unconscious, and sustained. This, the moral polarization, rather than any
partisan issue of the left or the right, is the great sickness of our
time. All of identity politics is caught up in it; the last time we had a
healthy identity movement was that led by Martin Luther King, over fifty
years ago. And of course, partisan politics is currently entirely driven
by it, though it was not historically.

You can recognize movements that are driven by moral polarization because
they are accusatory rather than visionary, and grievance based rather than
collaborative. They build moral polarization in at the foundations, as
feminism did with patriarchy theory, and as all modern identity movements
do, and as US partisan politics does, and this means that they are not
about equality or about solving real problems at all, rather they are
about affirming the righteousness of the victims and the guilt of the
perpetrators.

This is what psychohistory should be seeing and investigating. Instead,
it is caught up in the very polarization dynamic, at least as far as I can
tell on this list. You, Florian, are a perfect example of what I am
describing. Yes, you have written a lot, but it has all be simple
re-assertion of your claims, not dialogue at all. This is how moral
polarization operates, of course; the case FEELS so compelling when one is
in its grip, and the position of the adversary FEELS so obviously wrong
that it doesn't feel worth engaging with.

David
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Florian Galler

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Nov 4, 2020, 9:21:05 AM11/4/20
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Thank you, Esa for the New york Time quote on Biden " that you can “honestly face systemic racism” and love America. He argued that you can believe in fighting racism and believe in law and order. "

Florian Galler

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Nov 5, 2020, 9:57:42 AM11/5/20
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I do not believe Biden is respectful to rioters. The Blacks however urgently Need our compassion and support

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Die Lage am Morgen

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Ihr Morning-Briefing um 6 Uhr

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Montag, 2. November 2020

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Sebastian Fischer

Leiter des SPIEGEL-Hauptstadtbüros

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Liebe Leserin, lieber Leser,

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heute beschäftigen wir uns mit den nahenden US-Wahlen und dem beginnenden Corona-Shutdown in Deutschland.

Die Entscheidung des Jahres

In dieser Woche, am Dienstag, haben die Amerikaner die Wahl zwischen einem Demokratiezerstörer und einem Demokratiebewahrer. Wir alle, die ganze Welt wird vom Ausgang dieser Wahl geprägt werden. Mittun können wir nicht.

Es klingt noch immer surreal: Das Land, das uns vor einem Menschenalter die Demokratie brachte, ringt nun ernsthaft mit dieser Alternative: Zerstörer Donald Trump gegen Bewahrer Joe Biden. Dass Trump überhaupt eine realistische Chance hat, im Amt zu bleiben, das entzieht sich noch immer trotz so vieler erhellender Erkläransätze der politischen Rationalität.

Und realistisch ist die Chance allemal. 

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Trump in North Carolina am 1. November

Chris Carlson / AP

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Der deutliche Vorsprung in den Umfragen, den Biden bundesweit und in wichtigen Swing States zwei Tage vor der Wahl für sich verbuchen kann, ist nunmal ein rein virtueller Vorsprung. Der jüngsten Erhebung der "New York Times” zufolge liegt Biden in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida und Arizona vor Trump. Alle vier hatte Trump 2016 gegen Hillary Clinton gewonnen, sie ebneten ihm den Weg zum Sieg. 

Bringen sie ihn nun auf die Verlierstraße? Aber würde er eine Niederlage denn überhaupt akzeptieren?

Am Wochenende suchte der Präsident neuerlich Misstrauen mit Blick auf den Wahlprozess und die Briefwahlstimmen zu säen: "Die ganze Welt und unser Land werden warten und warten und warten, um zu erfahren, wer gewonnen hat, ihr werdet wochenlang warten.” Der 3. November werde kommen und gehen und man werde es nicht wissen: "Und ihr werdet chaotisches Durcheinander in unserem Land haben.” 

Mittlerweile haben bereits mehr als 90 Millionen US-Amerikaner ihre Stimmen abgegeben - das sind bereits zwei Drittel der Gesamtstimmenzahl von 2016. Mit einer Rekordwahlbeteiligung ist zu rechnen. Wobei Rekord relativ ist: Wenn 65 Prozent der Wahlberechtigten abstimmten, wäre das bereits eine Bestmarke für US-Verhältnisse. 

Bleibt Trump, wenn Biden kommt?

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Joe Biden in Philadelphia am 1. November

Andrew Harnik / dpa

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Sollte Joe Biden siegen, wird er das Land nicht einfach aufs alte Gleis zurücksetzen können. Auch wenn er das verspricht und Trump nur als Verirrung der Geschichte sehen mag. Tatsächlich würde Biden nicht da anschließen können, wo Barack Obama vor vier Jahren aufgehört hat - sondern er müsste an Trump anschließen.

Deshalb möchte ich Ihnen unsere aktuelle SPIEGEL-Titelstory empfehlen: Was von Trump bleibt - selbst wenn er gehen muss. Trump ist ja nicht allein die Ursache für die Spaltung der Nation, sondern Symptom einer tief reichenden Krise, die nicht verschwindet, wenn Trump verschwindet. 

Und noch etwas kommt hinzu: Wir Menschen tendieren dazu, uns an alles zu gewöhnen. Das sichert unser Überleben, aber das macht uns auch manchmal blind. Wir haben uns an Trump gewöhnt, an seinen Hass, seine Dummheit, seinen Rassismus. 

Der große US-Erzähler Philip Roth hat in seinem Buch "Verschwörung gegen Amerika”, das eine Präsidentschaft des Fliegers und Nazis Charles Lindbergh in den Vierzigerjahren imaginiert, vom "Terror des Unvorhergesehenen” geschrieben. Im historischen Rückblick würden solch unvorhergesehenen Ereignisse leider als zwangsläufig dargestellt, ein Ereignis folgt nunmal chronologisch aufs andere. Heißt: Man tendiert dazu, die Brüche wegzurationalisieren. Ein Desaster, schreibt Roth, wird dann einfach zur Erzählung. Wir sollten das Desaster Trump niemals vergessen.

Geschlossene Gesellschaft

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Sperrschild vor Kieler Sportplatz: Heute beginnt der Teil-Lockdown in Deutschland

Frank Molter / dpa

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Ab heute stehen wir auch in unserem Land alle jeden Tag im Kleinen vor großen Entscheidungen: Der zweite Shutdown im Kampf gegen das Coronavirus beginnt, er soll voraussichtlich bis zum Ende des Monats gelten. Wie viele werden sich wie entschieden daran halten? Und wie groß ist künftig noch jene Minderheit, die in den vergangenen Monaten mit ihrem unsolidarischen Verhalten die anfänglichen Erfolge teils verspielt hat? 

War die erste Welle im Frühjahr noch eine Naturkatastrophe, auf die Gesellschaft, Wissenschaft und Politik (neue) Anworten finden mussten, ist die zweite Welle doch vornehmlich menschengemacht. Weil wir wussten, was zu tun und zu lassen gewesen wäre. 

Dieses letzte Wochenende vor dem Shutdown machte da nicht nur Mut. Bei mir am Hauseingang etwa hing ein Zettel eines Clubs: Man wolle noch einmal Party machen und entschuldige sich für die Lautstärke. 

Wahrscheinlich ist die Lautstärke unser geringstes Problem.

Noch einmal einen raushauen, bevor wir alle wieder drinsitzen. Wenn jeder Tag zählt, wie es so schön heißt, ist das eine reichlich dumme Strategie. Und es illustriert erneut, dass unser gegenwärtiges Problem menschengemacht ist. Je größer das Ich, desto größer die Krise.

Außer Schulen und Kitas sowie Supermärkten und Geschäften (und ausgerechnet Gottesdiensten) wird nun alles wieder heruntergefahren. Weil die regional spezifischen Maßnahmen der vergangenen Wochen nicht griffen, bleibt nur die Hoffnung auf dieses generellere, sogenannte Wellenbrechermodell

Ist das gerecht? Nein, ist es nicht. Kann es ja gar nicht sein. Weil nun auch engagierte Unternehmerinnen, Künstler, Restaurantbesitzerinnen die Zeche dafür zahlen, dass wir alle es gemeinsam nicht hinbekommen haben. Die Details zu den einzelnen Maßnahmen lesen Sie hier.

Außerdem darf ich Ihnen an dieser Stelle ein spannendes SPIEGEL-Buchprojekt ans Herz legen: Heute erscheint "Lockdown” - 21 Autorinnen und Autoren aus verschiedenen Ressorts haben die politische Krisenbekämpfung in der ersten Phase detailliert nacherzählt und analysiert, etwa handfeste Konflikte zwischen den Ministerien - und am Schluss die Frage gestellt, was Politik, was wir als Gesellschaft für die Zukunft daraus lernen können. Und was das mit Blick auf die rollende zweite Welle heißt. 

­

­

Verlierer des Tages…

­

­

­

­

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"Ständige Vertretung" in Berlin (Archivbild)

Britta Pedersen / dpa

­

­

…ist die StäV. Die Berliner Kölsch-Kneipe "Ständige Vertretung” nahe des Bahnhofs Friedrichstraße will wegen des Corona-Shutdowns Angela Merkel, Olaf Scholz, den Regierenden Bürgermeister Michael Müller, Bayerns Ministerpräsidenten Markus Söder und andere nicht (mehr) bewirten. Hausverbot für die Politiker. Das ist natürlich erstens unter Shutdown-Bedingungen ohnehin schwierig, zweitens ist nicht bekannt, ob Merkel und Co. in der näheren oder ferneren Zukunft überhaupt einen Besuch der Lokalität geplant hatten und drittens ist es für einen Laden, der damit wirbt, dass hin und wieder politische Prominenz vorbeischaut vielleicht nicht so zielführend, politische Prominenz zu verbannen.

­

­

Die jüngsten Meldungen aus der Nacht

­

­

Die SPIEGEL+-Empfehlungen für heute

Ich wünsche Ihnen einen guten Start in die Woche.

Ihr Sebastian Fischer

­

 

 

Gesendet von Mail für Windows 10

 

Von: David Shackleton
Gesendet: Montag, 2. November 2020 06:44
An:
realpsyc...@googlegroups.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Spontaneous preferences in politics

 


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James Sturges

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Nov 6, 2020, 2:18:43 PM11/6/20
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David,

Arguing with Florian is like trying to argue a schizophrenic out of their delusions.

And he's not the only one hanging around this list who is on the wrong side of the psychoanalytic couch.

----Jim



> email to realpsychohistory+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

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Esa Palosaari

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Nov 6, 2020, 5:37:01 PM11/6/20
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Hi,

Since I am the only one I see on this thread other than Jim, Florian, and David, I assume that Jim is referring to me as being on the wrong side of the psychoanalytic couch for suggesting that Biden is not that partisan, assessing him to be a lesser threat to democracy than Trump, and presenting a fact check from Reuters for claims mabe by David. Maybe a delusional schizophrenic like Florian?

I have hung around or lurked on this list for two decades or so. I have posted only a couple of times, and I have generally not been interested in this or other psychohistory matters for a decade. Very seldom some posts appear on my inbox, and probably most go to junk mail. Since I found out about psychohistory as a teenager after reading Alice Miller, Juha Siltala, and Lloyd deMause in the 90s, I thought psychohistory and psychology might help humanity deal with its most important and difficult problems. It propelled me to get a degree in history, masters in economics, and a doctorate in psychology, as well as several years in psychoanalytic psychotherapy. 

I really liked the authentic, insightful and mindful interaction in psychotherapy where there was no name calling or jargon used as insult or as pretend understanding. Experiences on this and other similar lists, and reading some writings of psychohistorians, on the other hand, have been somewhat disappointing, I am sorry to say. People seem to have lots of room to grow in dealing constructively with each other and with conflicts, and with different political ideologies. The words, terms or connotations used seem to be more like walls than bridges to make connections and bring understanding. Also, it seems difficult to agree on what is real. I have grown to appreciate the quantitative side of academic research where I can debate fruitfully with, for example, communists and islamists about psychological trauma. We can all more or less agree on the facts and learn new things despite our political and religious ideologies being worlds apart, enemies even. That is true even though researchers have trouble understanding the math behind the methods they are using. Qualitative research seems easier on the surface, but turns out to be much harder because there is so much room for interpretation that, I assume, it is even easier to fit the data to your preconceptions than with statistics. And you can very much do that already with statistics so that whole literatures can be mistaken (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/349/6251/aac4716.full). And hardest of all are the moral value judgements which seem to come so easily and readily that we have trouble stopping them even if we try. Questions of values, ethics or ideology may be impossible and maybe even nonsensical. I have the same experience as the great American psychologist Paul Meehl, that I tend to always agree with whatever is the latest political philosopher I happen to read (http://meehl.umn.edu/talks/philosophical-psychology-1989).

That's my experience with psychology and with some psychohistory here. Probably will not be bothering you much further.

Esa

Florian Galler

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Nov 7, 2020, 4:23:33 AM11/7/20
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Esa, you write the following: “Since I am the only one I see on this thread other than Jim, Florian, and David, I assume that Jim is referring to me as being on the wrong side of the psychoanalytic couch for suggesting that Biden is not that partisan, assessing him to be a lesser threat to democracy than Trump, and presenting a fact check from Reuters for claims mabe by David. Maybe a delusional schizophrenic like Florian?”

Are you aware, that this mean you think I am a delusional schizophrenic? But still, an interesting idea. he behaves in any case like some sort of sociopath

No Sturges does not mean you, he has been harassing me for decades.

 

I can agree with what you say below: “The words, terms or connotations used seem to be more like walls than bridges to make connections and bring understanding”

Esa Palosaari

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Nov 7, 2020, 8:26:29 AM11/7/20
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Hi Florian,

I have no reason to think you are a delusional schizophrenic. I was referring to what Jim wrote, associating people here with mental disorders and probably shaming them for having one. Even if one did suffer from schizophrenia or sociopathy, one could still make correct claims and valuable scientific contributions. Indeed, we probably would not be able to communicate using these computers without the work of several mathematicians and logicians with serious mental disorders: http://www.logicomix.com/; https://people.ucalgary.ca/~rzach/blog/2009/09/logic-and-madness.html.

I hope the best for all of you.

Esa

Florian Galler

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Nov 7, 2020, 8:36:39 AM11/7/20
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I know Esa, hope you stay in the group. Thankyou for your valuable remarks!

Florian Galler

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Nov 7, 2020, 8:51:26 AM11/7/20
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David, you wrote the following to me: Florian, you did not respond to a single point made in response to your
posts."  You are not entitled to the kind of response  as you expect, as you think it should be.  As well as I can not expect other people  to deal with my postings in a comprehensively way, as I expect. I am not obliged to answer you at all or in the way you expect me to. I can write something to it and you can appreciate it or not, that's it.

da...@integraldesign.org schrieb am Sonntag, 1. November 2020 um 20:55:08 UTC+1:

da...@integraldesign.org

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Nov 7, 2020, 9:05:06 AM11/7/20
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I do not much enjoy the kind of exchange that I have engaged in over the last few days, chiefly with Florian.

I joined this list some years ago hoping to see substantial analysis of current affairs from a psychohistorical perspective.  This is, after all, what deMause founded the field in order to support.

Is there anyone on the list who would be interested in discussing the issue of moral polarization, the us-and-them victim/perpetrator narrative that has become the main psychological vehicle of modern politics?  If not, I propose to leave the list, as it adds no value for me.

David

Florian Galler

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Nov 7, 2020, 9:46:56 AM11/7/20
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I will of course respect your wish and will not write any more comments to your postings. Unless you comment my postings.

Esa Palosaari

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Nov 7, 2020, 10:31:19 AM11/7/20
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Hi,

I likely won't be joining the discussion you want. But you might be interested in research suggesting that showing people stimuli related to attachment security or secure base reduces ingroup bias (Mikulincer & Shaver, 2001). Unfortunately, I was unable to replicate the result in the laboratory. I found an ingroup bias in giving money to domestic rather than foreign homeless people, but no statistically significant effect on the bias from the stimuli that Mikulincer and Shaver used. I am not sure what the non-replication tells us. Maybe not much, because the statistical power was not very high.

Esa
Mikulincer, M., & Shaver, P. R. (2001). Attachment theory and intergroup bias: Evidence that priming the secure base schema attenuates negative reactions to out-groups. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 81(1), 97–115.
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Florian Galler

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Nov 8, 2020, 6:29:01 AM11/8/20
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Dear Esa, are you also on https://groups.google.com/g/cliospsyche? There is much more going on there than on realpsychohistory. It has interesting participants, even if the group is dominated by narrow-minded left-wing ideologues.Best

Florian

David Shackleton

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Nov 8, 2020, 10:20:07 AM11/8/20
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Thank you, Esa. Do you have a link for that study, I was unable to find a
copy that wasn't behind a paywall by using Google.

David
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/realpsychohistory/0f05a42850f778f9521e72338fd365b9590e0e0e.camel%40gmail.com.
>


Esa Palosaari

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Nov 8, 2020, 10:24:09 AM11/8/20
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Google Scholar gives this link which seems to work: https://www.academia.edu/download/45458979/Attachment_Theory_and_Intergroup_Bias_Ev20160508-20701-1lq5vi6.pdf. Sci-hub with its several servers around the world also usually has a version available although that may be illegal.

Esa

Esa Palosaari

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Nov 8, 2020, 10:24:52 AM11/8/20
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Thank you for the link, Florian! I will check it out.

Esa

David Shackleton

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Nov 8, 2020, 10:32:27 AM11/8/20
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Thanks, Esa

David

> Google Scholar gives this link which seems to work:
> https://www.academia.edu/download/45458979/Attachment_Theory_and_Intergroup_Bias_Ev20160508-20701-1lq5vi6.pdf
> . Sci-hub with its several servers around the world also usually has a
> version available although that may be illegal.
> Esa
> su, 2020-11-08 kello 10:19 -0500, David Shackleton kirjoitti:
>> Thank you, Esa. Do you have a link for that study, I was unable to
>> find acopy that wasn't behind a paywall by using Google.
>> David
>> > Hi,I likely won't be joining the discussion you want. But you might
>> > beinterested in research suggesting that showing people stimuli
>> > relatedto attachment security or secure base reduces ingroup bias
>> > (Mikulincer& Shaver, 2001). Unfortunately, I was unable to
>> > replicate the result inthe laboratory. I found an ingroup bias in
>> > giving money to domesticrather than foreign homeless people, but no
>> > statistically significanteffect on the bias from the stimuli that
>> > Mikulincer and Shaver used. Iam not sure what the non-replication
>> > tells us. Maybe not much, becausethe statistical power was not very
>> > high.Esa Mikulincer, M., & Shaver, P. R. (2001). Attachment theory
>> > andintergroup bias: Evidence that priming the secure base
>> > schemaattenuates negative reactions to out-groups. Journal of
>> > Personality andSocial Psychology, 81(1), 97–115.
>> > la, 2020-11-07 kello 09:04 -0500, da...@integraldesign.org
>> > kirjoitti:
>> > > I do not much enjoy the kind of exchange that I have engaged in
>> > > overthe last few days, chiefly with Florian.I joined this list
>> > > some years ago hoping to see substantial analysisof current
>> > > affairs from a psychohistorical perspective. This is,after all,
>> > > what deMause founded the field in order to support.Is there
>> > > anyone on the list who would be interested in discussing theissue
>> > > of moral polarization, the us-and-them
>> > > victim/perpetratornarrative that has become the main
>> > > psychological vehicle of modernpolitics? If not, I propose to
>> > > leave the list, as it adds no valuefor me.
>> > >
>> > > David
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>> > > GoogleGroups "realpsychohistory" group.
>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>> > > it,send an email to
>> > > realpsychohist...@googlegroups.com.
>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/realpsychohistory/73c6c3b23eb74dc6673111cd4541f3f2%40integraldesign.org
>> > > .
>> >
>> > --You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>> > group and stop receiving emails from it, send anemail to
>> > realpsychohist...@googlegroups.com.To view this
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Cherry Russell

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Nov 9, 2020, 11:13:20 AM11/9/20
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Hi, David --

>>>>>
the issue of moral polarization, the us-and-them victim/perpetrator narrative that has become the main psychological vehicle of modern politics? 
<<<<<

You might be interested in

Beyond Intractability
https://www.beyondintractability.org/
Cherry Russell
>> > > realpsychohistory+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/realpsychohistory/73c6c3b23eb74dc6673111cd4541f3f2%40integraldesign.org
>> > > .
>> >
>> > --You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>> > group and stop receiving emails from it, send anemail to
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>> > discussion on the web visit
>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/realpsychohistory/0f05a42850f778f9521e72338fd365b9590e0e0e.camel%40gmail.com
>> > .
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Allan Hytowitz

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Feb 7, 2021, 8:08:27 PM2/7/21
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David,

It is NOT "moral polarization."

There is a simpler, yet even more scary, physiological explanation for the seeming "cultural polarization" which has affected the politics of the United States and numerous other countries.

It is not a liberal versus conservative polarization, nor a rich versus poor, nor even a white versus black polarization.

However, it does have a tribal element to it.  And it is a result of my (scary) discovery that how we "see" the world determines how we "view" the world.

deMouse wrote that the cultural tendency to impose corporal punishment created a disposition towards authoritarianisms in German society.  

Ironically, that authoritarianism and disciplined success at being a good soldier frequently was the undoing of the German army where the loss of the chain of command, and an inability to think outside-of-the-box, resulted in the lower level soldiers being unable to have the flexibility, leadership, and survival skills to get out of difficult situations.  They also had a higher level of tribalism.  When German propaganda insisted that Germans were the Master Race, it resulted in a frequent American response that "being a US Citizen made the US the Master Race" (not the Germans) no matter what our genetic origins.

I think I have figured out why so many Americans still revere and trust Donald Trump.   I need your assistance in separating coincidence from causality, and in helping me get sufficient validation..

The key to understanding what has happened over the past 4+ years is NOT that Donald Trump is a narcissist or dishonest or illiterate or a bully.  The key is to understand why so many people believe in the "carp" and lies and stupidity coming from Donald Trump.  To do so you need to realize that the primary factors in Trump's behavior is his (undiagnosed) dyslexia and his abused/authoritarian childhood where he learned to lie and bully people to hide his illiteracy and incompetence.

What makes Trump's physiological and experiential attributes significant is that I discovered that about 85% of the Trump supporters also tested positive for dyslexia and had an authoritarian childhood.

Donald Trump is a liar, serial embezzler, serial adulterer, a bully, a narcissist, illiterate, incompetent, ignorant, and has no understanding of basic science or causality.  

However, Trump's behavior is actually easy to understand and predict.  He has dyslexia and learned in childhood, thanks to his abusive/alcoholic father, that lying and bullying could be used to hide his illiteracy and incompetence.

What has been hard to understand is how seemingly "normal" people would be so gullible to believe Trump's lies and find his behavior to be acceptable, especially among so-called "Evangelicals."  Without their support, and the help of Trump's sycophants, Trump would not have become the 45th President.

It has taken two years to find a possible explanation based upon a combination of variances in visual perception and the effect of childhood authoritarianism and/or abuse.

I need your assistance in validating, or invalidating, my explanation for the behavior of the "dedicated Trump supporters" as to coincidence or causality.

===============================================================

Ten years ago I discovered that a spinning segmented ring could provide a more precise and efficient visual target for measuring acuity and refractions.  I call the visual target a Dyop, short for dynamic optotype.


I also discovered that individuals with a preference for seeing the spinning of a smaller Blue/Black Dyop (with a smaller acuity endpoint) versus an identical diameter spinning Green/White Dyop likely had symptoms of "dyslexia" or migraines, or epilepsy.  Thanks to Dr. Chris Chase, of Western University in Pomona, I had an explanation as to the variances in the red/green ratio of photoreceptors in the back of the retina.


Dr. Chase discovered that individuals with a 75% red and 20% green ratio of photoreceptors were symptomatic for dyslexia as "slow readers" (and migraines and epilepsy) versus non-symptomatic individuals with a more balanced 50% red and 45% green ratio of photoreceptors.  (5% of the  photoreceptors are blue.

That concept and ratio was also in his paper:

Thanks to Dr. Sandra Stark, we now have validation of a 90% correlation of the higher red/green ratio of photoreceptors to potential symptoms of dyslexia.

However, prior to the 2016 election I discovered among friends who areTrump supporters (I do have a few friends who are Trump supporters) that almost ALL of them were better able to see the spinning of a Blue/Black Dyop rather than a Green/White Dyop.   I followed that up with a random sampling of potential voters in 2016 at a nearby Mall Food Court and discovered that 87% of the Trump supporters preferentially saw the smaller Blue/Black Dyop (indicating a higher red/green photoreceptor ratio) versus 32% of the Clinton supporters.  My screening test showed a much higher percentage (52%) of individuals with the higher red/green ratio (seeing the smaller spinning Blue/Black) than found in the literature (~20%), but those individuals who preferentially saw the spinning Blue/Black also had a personal or family history of migraines and epilepsy as well as dyslexia.  Most of those individuals who tested positive were not aware of their vision-related condition.  

Initial color test responses for the spinning Blue/Black versus the spinning Green/White ring

CandidateBlueGreenTotal % Blue% GreenTotal% Blue% GreenTotal
Clinton81725 32%68%100%38%89%62%
Trump13215 87%13%100%62%11%38%
Total211940 52%48%100%100%100%100%


It took me two more years to figure out a possible correlation of vision with their politics.  

When I asked additional Trump supporters who tested positive for the higher red/green ratio to describe their childhood experiences they referred to it as being either authoritarian or even abusive.  The higher red/green ratio individuals who were Clinton supporters tended to have loving/nurturing childhoods.  

As was explained by a psychologist working with dyslexics, individuals with dyslexia learn to be overconfident in their behavior due to their unstable near vision imageregardless of their literacy skills, because it helps them to better deal with their visual stress.  (The visual stress also contributes to alcoholism and drug abuse.) 

lack the psychological terminology to properly describe the potential correlation.  It is similar to my not having the proper terminology to initially describe the Dyop concept.

What I have concluded is that an authoritarian childhood teaches individuals to have win-lose relationships.  A nurturing childhood teaches individuals to have win-win relationships.  I have categorized the combined categories of visual responses and childhood as Conservative, Fundamentalist, Collaborative, and Analytical.
 

 

Blue Preference

Green Preference

 

High Red/Green

Balanced Red/Green

Type of Childhood

75% Red / 20% Green

50% Red  / 45% Green

Symbiotic/Nurturing - Win/Win

Conservative

Collaborative

Predatory/Authoritarian – Win/Lose

Fundamentalist

Skeptic

 

Individuals with a nurturing/symbiotic childhood, but with High Red/Green Ratio, tend to prefer structured or hierarchical relationships.  I call that category Conservative (which seems to include most people with sincere religious convictions).


Individuals with an authoritarian/predatory childhood, and a High Red/Green Ratio, learn from that childhood to be authoritarian or submissive (codependent) to authoritarianism.  I call that category Fundamentalist.  The overwhelming majority of "cultish" Trump supporters are Fundamentalists, and Trump supporters don't like Government Regulations due to their visual stress of reading complicated documents. 
 
Individuals with a nurturing childhood, and a Balanced Red/Green Ratio, learn from that childhood to be symbiotic (win-win) in their relationships.  I call that category Collaborative.

Individuals with an authoritarian childhood, but a Balanced Red/Green Ratio, learn from that childhood to be either skeptical or rebellious.  I call that category Analytical.  That skepticism contributes to my obsession with science, and negativity towards group affiliations.

My conclusion is that "How you SEE the world determines how you VIEW the world."

The terminology I am using is based on my personal experience and observations.  My concern is mostly with the Fundamentalists ("the Cult of Trump") in that they overcompensate for their own insecurities and will continue to believe the compulsive lies of Donald Trump.  My hope is that the validation of their color perception combined with their childhood imprinting can be used to explain to those individuals WHY they have been so easily conned by Donald Trump.  If nothing else it will contribute to the next generation avoiding corporal punishment or authoritarinism as part of child rearing.
As to validation of my conclusions, the online Dyop color/contrast screening test is available at no charge and can be used on a PC, iPhone, iPad, or Android device.  I am hoping you can suggest someone who could do a proper Academic study.  


What I need is someone willing to do a proper Academic validation:

1.  Ask individuals to move away from the screen until they cannot detect the segmented rings as moving, and then move forward to determine if they see the Blue spinning ring or the Green spinning ring first? 

http://www.dyop.info/documents/Color_iPad/index.html  ;  

2.  Ask the individuals, on a scale from 1 to 10, how Authoritarian their childhood was?

3.  Ask the individuals if they voted for Trump or Biden? 


If my theory is correct, your data should match MY data as to an approximate 85% combination of "dyslexia" and childhood authoritarianism among Trump supporters.


I also realize that "dedicated" Trump supporters will likely be offended by such a test, and accuse the test giver of having "Trump Derangement Syndrome."  Ironically, BEING a Trump supporter IS indicative of "Trump Derangement Syndrome."   

It was also suggested that there may be a global and cultural aspect to this thesis as well. Please note that "racial" is not the same as "racist."

The evolutionary advantage of a more stable distance image (a High Red/Green Ratio) is that it enabled an individual to more easily spot predators and game as part of a hunter/warrior society.  It also encouraged a tribal or predatory (win-lose) cultural mentality.  The cultural and evolutionary advantage of more stable distance imagestarting about 3500 years ago  is that it makes reading letter based words easier.  Note that gene pools and cultures with a higher ratio of high red/green photoreceptor individuals tend to use pictographic writing. 

As to the genetic distribution of vision types, about 95% of Native Americans have dyslexia as descendants of the Mongols.  About 80% of Hispanic Americans also have dyslexia as mixed-race descendants of Native Americans.  About 80% of Native Africans have dyslexia while "only" 60% of African Americans have dyslexia due to being mixed-race descendants of Native Africans.  About 80% of the Asian gene pool (especially China) also has the higher red/green ratio which correlates to their being descendants of the Mongols much as are Native Americans.  It also correlates to Asian cultures using pictographic writing rather than letter-based writing since pictographs are more easily identified at a distance than clusters of letters.

Finally, my apologies for the length of this commentary.  My conclusions are "outrageous" (albeit significant, if they can be Academically validated) and scare me.  It scares me so much that I actually have an "anonymous" web page describing the behavior of Donald Trump and his supporters/sycophants.


While I created this page about two years ago, I am now stunned at the comment at the bottom of the page and its relevance to what took place at the US Capitol on January 6, 2021:


 

HOWEVER, I am NOT very optimistic as to the outcome of our society WHEN Trump is removed from office.  There are too many Trump supporters who continue to be oblivious to the lies, the immorality, the corruption, and the bullying who will fail to recognize that they have been conned.

 

What I am expecting is a massive, Trump supporting, self-appointed militia will riot similar to the riots in India when a beloved guru was convicted of rape:

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/india-riot-guru-rape-conviction-dead-1.4263977

 

Fortunately our “well-regulated militia” (the US Military, Police, and National Guard) will be able to deal with the self-appointed “people” who think they have the “right to bear arms” and fail to realize that their obsession is actually that of a self-appointed terrorist organization.

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Until this year I thought I was being overly dramatic as to my description of the response to Trump's political departure.  Now I realize I might have been prophetic.

And at the top of that webpage I also have videos of Donald Trump showing "classic" behaviors of illiteracy and dyslexia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz4gpBH2n-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybp1alenryo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzqbE7yYxE0

The best video on the webpage is the interview at OxfordUniversity with Tony Schwartz (author of “The Art of the Deal”).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxF_CDDJ0YI&t=2s

Schwartz was interviewed PRIOR to the November 2016 Election.  He does not use the term dyslexia, but he does describe Donald Trump as being functionally illiterate, uninformed, irresponsible, and blatantly incompetent using lying and bullying to hide his illiteracy and incompetence

I realize that the problem with the "Cult of Trump" will likely resolve themselves after more conflict, but providing an explanation for it may speed up the process, and benefit people with increased rationality and helpsurvival of the human race.

Again, thank you for your assistance, and thank you for your time.  Please forward this to anyone who might be able to assist me with Academic validation.

Regards,



Allan Hytowitz
5035 Morton Ferry Circle
Johns Creek, GA 30022
Technology is the use of increasingly accurate, self-evident, and reproducible information to replace energy and matter.  

The benefit of technology is NOT in what it lets people accomplish, but in how it improves the character of people. 

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Allan Hytowitz
5035 Morton Ferry Circle
Johns Creek, GA 30022
Technology is the use of increasingly accurate, self-evident, and reproducible information to replace energy and matter.  

The benefit of technology is NOT in what it lets people accomplish, but in how it improves the character of people. 

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